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Thread: CM3 Back Online

  1. #11
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    John, your still somewhat indirect comments finally made me think a little more - so I revisited the WBB site and looked around it.

    I suspect that the areas you refer to are contained in the 'WB Laws Decisions' section, which is clearly more than is the case for 'decisions on the laws' in golf - it goes as far as to include actual changes to laws, rather than clarification of what the current laws should be taken to mean. I have actually visited these pages on occasion when referred to proposed alterations (eg on this forum), but had not really appreciated the effect!

    Proposed new Law 52.1.3.1 is shown there (amongst others) - presumably this with immediate effect? Or is it, as with golf, an agreed change that will take effect at a subsequent point in time? As far as I can see, neither this new/proposed law, nor any other, would have had any impact on my comments on this site to date, but please correct me/the comment if I am wrong in this - we do not want to mislead people who visit this site.

    So, we are left in a situation where the pdf version of the Laws - CM3 - as available from the WB site does NOT include all or, possibly, any of the ammendments agreed by WB since the first CM3 version was published? WB are promulgating out-of-date laws? If correct, this seems a poor situation to be in.

    As I said before, on a quick viewing I cannot see any difference between the pdf version I downloaded in 2017 and that now available as being our laws from WB! Presumably, if I had actually ordered a hard copy, it, too, would not contain these changes? If so, there would be little merit in having one.

    If correct, what is the point? People can only play to and apply laws that are clearly known/available to all - we do not seem to be in this position. I can only assume (and know in a couple of cases) players do actually have hard copies of CM3 and believe those to be gospel! It seems they may be mistaken.

    It would seem time that the sport was given an updated version of the laws to which it is exected to play - especially with the indoor extension. Bushman's comment has more truth to it than I first imagined!

  2. #12
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    According to the WB site: "The current edition of the Laws of the Sport of Bowls is the Crystal Mark Third Edition which was approved by MNAs on 2nd August 2014."
    It does not say "as amended". As noted above, as far as I can see the version of CM3 which WB put forward for folk to access and download/use is this original version, with no amendments (does anyone have anything to indicate the contrary?)

    In their wording on the WB Laws Decision pages there seem to be two sets of wording: eg.

    - "The Laws Committee has ratified the decision taken at the WB Council Meeting to lower the minimum size of bowls. It has agreed that the following changes to Laws 52.1.6.1 and 52.1.7.1 (highlighted) will come into immediate effect "; etc etc

    - but, compare this with an earlier statement there as regards 'Proposed change to the law' December 2016: which states: "
    The Laws Committee is of the view that the current requirement for large grooved rings surrounding the centre of the non-bias side is not necessary. It proposes, therefore, to revise the laws to remove this requirement. " Proposed revised law wordings are given - but does this actually mean that the revisions are to be given immediate effect, or are they simply approved by WB for introducing at a later stage as yet unstated? The former is not specifically stated for this revision.

    Is anyone clear as to precisely what the laws we are to apply are? Is there a definitive version available?






  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    According to the WB site: "The current edition of the Laws of the Sport of Bowls is the Crystal Mark Third Edition which was approved by MNAs on 2nd August 2014."
    It does not say "as amended". As noted above, as far as I can see the version of CM3 which WB put forward for folk to access and download/use is this original version, with no amendments (does anyone have anything to indicate the contrary?)

    In their wording on the WB Laws Decision pages there seem to be two sets of wording: eg.

    - "The Laws Committee has ratified the decision taken at the WB Council Meeting to lower the minimum size of bowls. It has agreed that the following changes to Laws 52.1.6.1 and 52.1.7.1 (highlighted) will come into immediate effect "; etc etc

    - but, compare this with an earlier statement there as regards 'Proposed change to the law' December 2016: which states: "
    The Laws Committee is of the view that the current requirement for large grooved rings surrounding the centre of the non-bias side is not necessary. It proposes, therefore, to revise the laws to remove this requirement. " Proposed revised law wordings are given - but does this actually mean that the revisions are to be given immediate effect, or are they simply approved by WB for introducing at a later stage as yet unstated? The former is not specifically stated for this revision.

    Is anyone clear as to precisely what the laws we are to apply are? Is there a definitive version
    Your law book should contain an Addendum then all will be revealed
    No Grey Areas

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    No wonder Indoor Bowls is losing players. I'm losing the will to live.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by john haydock View Post
    Your law book should contain an Addendum then all will be revealed
    True, as long as one knows of or is provided with them in the booklet! Yet, even the version available from WB does not appear to in any way (or even mention that they exist)! Why do they not do so - or update the pdf version (with a note if needed, giving the effective date).

    Remember, John not all players are as adept as you at keeping track of any changes in the laws. Do you expect everyone to keep track and make such Addendums (sic!?) just before they go out to play each time?

    As you know, in golf, they issue a free revised law booklet every few years with any agreed new laws in it - with a helpful summary of the details of the changes etc so players can see at a glance - which are in every clubhouse for people to take and those become effective from a single date at that point. Simples, effective and helpful. Players then have no excuse for not knowing of and applying new laws at any given time.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    True, as long as one knows of or is provided with them in the booklet! Yet, even the version available from WB does not appear to in any way (or even mention that they exist)! Why do they not do so - or update the pdf version (with a note if needed, giving the effective date).

    Remember, John not all players are as adept as you at keeping track of any changes in the laws. Do you expect everyone to keep track and make such Addendums (sic!?) just before they go out to play each time?

    As you know, in golf, they issue a free revised law booklet every few years with any agreed new laws in it - with a helpful summary of the details of the changes etc so players can see at a glance - which are in every clubhouse for people to take and those become effective from a single date at that point. Simples, effective and helpful. Players then have no excuse for not knowing of and applying new laws at any given time.
    I do not think you can blame WB,take a look at the clubs,this Addendum is posted onour club notice board under laws etc.together with an up todate law book,WB website has changes listed too.I would be very surprised if more than 5% wouldknow where the law book was,and even then less would read it, which is why we also have a conditions of play book covering the rules and laws for every league,and also covering most ofthe situations which can arrive in a game, ie playing out of turn,wrong bowl, illegal cast jack,jack in motion striking players foot etc So i visit many clubs to play, see nothing in most which is informative with regard to laws etc. So i have got to be putting a lot of the blame on controlling bodies within the club.
    Last edited by john haydock; 15-01-2019 at 11:26 AM.
    No Grey Areas

  7. #17
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    All very true John.
    However, it is WB that have gone to the trouble of adding the Laws to their website. Surely, it would not have been the hardest thing in the world to (a) make the changes to the law book in situ, as listed in the addendum, (b) included the addendum at the end of the PDF, (c) mention in the laws PDF that an addendum exists (and a link?) and should be viewed in conjunction with the laws or (d) next to the button you click on their site to download the laws, have another button for downloading the addendum.
    It is coming across as if they don't want anyone to know there are amendments.
    Thirty years of hurt, never stopped me dreaming!

  8. #18
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    I can only agree with RG Bargy.

    John, your club is clearly proactive, and that is to be commended - but who actually 'discovers' these changes and puts them up on the board? Is it you or someone of like mind who actively searches for them as they arise - or does WB (either direct or through the national body etc) actually notify the club? They don't at my club - to my knowledge.

    You also mention that you provide: "an up todate law book" - how is this obtained? or do you take the available CM3 and write in any changes as they seem to arise?

    As RGBG says, it would not be beyond the wit of man for WB to at least mention the changes in connection with the CM3 version now available in some way on their website. Not to do so, invites people to download the pdf and take it as gospel - and I for one would not blame them in that.

    Also, no-one has come back as to whether the changes not specifically stated to be 'with immediate effect' are to be regarded as such. If a propsoed change - even if accepted/approved by WB - is not stated to be effective immediately, my reaction would be not to regard it as such. Otherwise, what is the point of saying 'with immediate effect' in other instances? There seems to be a worrying lack of consistency here. How does your club regard this, John?

    At the end of the day, as WB are the ones putting forward these changes, I would argue that they should do so in a way that is clear and unambiguous - and that does not seem to be happening. I do therefore lay fault on WB, I'm afraid, to that extent.

    And, to close, what are bowls players to do/think who are recently newly bound by the CM3 laws - could they be blamed for downloading the available version, not knowing - as you do - that ammendments are there already and seemingly equally applicable? This is nothing but plain silly and indefensible.

  9. #19
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    My last comment on the matter.What are your County Association doing that you are so badly informed on important matters
    No Grey Areas

  10. #20
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    Good question - but a deflection from the point at issue: If WB make and publish the laws, why are they not doing so on their own website via an updated CM3?

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