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Thread: Scorecard

  1. #11
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    Astolat actually said; "...the skip keeps the card. The skip can delegate this duty..." . We've already looked at the position under 40.1.9, but, in addition, 40.1.10 says:

    "
    Skips can, at any time, delegate their own powers and any of their own duties (except those described in law 40.1.7)"

    and it was the basic requirement under 40.1.7 that was being discussed as the prime Law relating to the original enquiry. I read the exception in parenthesis as meaning that the skip cannot pass over responsibility for the card (as it was established by 40.1.7) under the general delegation power in 40.1.10. This exception was mentioned in my original reply. Is my logic at fault?

    Do you want a full quote of every single law that might possibly apply in the situation and in every country that bowls might be played every time? I've been accused elsewhere of giving too long responses - that would make them even longer. I reply to the best of my ability/knowledge under the laws/rules applicable to the given question in my country. You aren't obliged to read them, John - feel free to skip over them.

    For precision (I prefer the lower-case P) I gave the wording of 40.1.9 - in #8 - from the laws as that made it clear that 40.1.9 does not give the skip the power to delegate, only the Member Authority to transfer a duty where it so choses. There is a difference between 'delegating' and 'transferring' in this context.
    No all we want is the quote that is relevant,you are the one who uses chunks of the laws,and in this case you are once again trying to justify your mistake by quoting others,my llast comment,let others decide who was right
    No Grey Areas

  2. #12
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    To make my train of thought easier to follow, here it is in simple, logical form. It's a fairly straightforward and short sequence, this time. The wording may be slightly loose/imprecise, but that's to keep this simple and to get the basic point across.

    40.1.7 - imposes the duty on the Skip to keep and record the score card etc

    40.1.9 - allows Member National Authorities to transfer Skip's duties to another member of the team. It gives no rights/powers to the Skip.

    40.1.10 - allows a Skip to transfer duties to another member of his team under certain circumstances/conditions : BUT- this power is denied in the case of any powers/duties set out in 40.1.7

    Therefore: absent any action by the MNA (and I am not aware of any in the UK, as set out by Astolat in #7) the Skip has to keep the card under 40.1.7

    I'm not stupid or blinkered enough to think I will always get things right, and am quite happy to admit when shown to be in the wrong, but I must admit that my outlook and training has always been to question matters, to go back to the source, and not to blindly accept what I am told without being happy with its' justification. If that makes me seem belligerent to anyone, I'm sorry - but that's just how I am, and I'm unlikely to change at this point in life!

  3. #13
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    "...you are once again trying to justify your mistake by quoting others" - No : I justify by reference to the law. The quote from Astolat was not to justify my conclusion based on the law, simply to show that your words ("Astolat has told us that" - #9 - following my giving the actual wording of the law's paragraph he referred to) were not justification, or even the correct reading of his post: 40.1.9 is of no bearing in the UK at the present time, as I understand it, as the MNA has not acted under its provisions. Am I wrong, John?
    .
    Maybe, John, once in a while you could back up your conclusions by concrete references/quotes to/from the laws rather than just somewhat-vague comments that you expect others to accept. I may be wrong in this case, but you would prove your point (which may only be that I am wrong!) more easily, convincingly and quickly, by doing so, rather than the long-drawn-out innuendo you seem to prefer in these discussions.

    "
    let others decide who was right" - right on! We agree.



  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    "...you are once again trying to justify your mistake by quoting others" - No : I justify by reference to the law. The quote from Astolat was not to justify my conclusion based on the law, simply to show that your words ("Astolat has told us that" - #9 - following my giving the actual wording of the law's paragraph he referred to) were not justification, or even the correct reading of his post: 40.1.9 is of no bearing in the UK at the present time, as I understand it, as the MNA has not acted under its provisions. Am I wrong, John?
    .
    Maybe, John, once in a while you could back up your conclusions by concrete references/quotes to/from the laws rather than just somewhat-vague comments that you expect others to accept. I may be wrong in this case, but you would prove your point (which may only be that I am wrong!) more easily, convincingly and quickly, by doing so, rather than the long-drawn-out innuendo you seem to prefer in these discussions.

    "
    let others decide who was right" - right on! We agree.

    sorry to intervene in this domestic. If you look inside the back cover of the laws, Regulation 4 sets out the governing body's approval for skips to transfer the duty to keep the scorecard to another member of the team provided it is to a player in the same position in each team.
    so Astolat's post is perfectly correct.



    sorry to intervene in this domestic. Inside the back cover of the laws it confirms (Reg 4) that the governing body has agreed that skips can transfer scorecard duties provided it is to a player in the same position on each team. So Astolat's post is correct.
    ruff!

  5. #15
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    3 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Ok enough on this now please.
    As moderator I am stepping in here

    It was a simple question and the OP deserves a simple answer in line with the laws and the relevant DR in their country. I believe Astolat has now provided that.

    Discussions like this are more frequently becoming unnecessary arguments and will be cut short by me in future

    As officials we are here to help players gain a better understanding of the laws.
    If you wish to discuss/disagree/argue then do it in private messages off line.
    Further argumentative replies will be removed

    Many thanks for your cooperation.
    It's a simple game really!!!
    Commonwealth Games Technical Official - Manchester 2002, Melbourne 2006, Delhi 2010, Glasgow 2014, Gold Coast 2018

    www.allanthornhill.com or Contact me directly @ Ask Umpy

    Any comments made by me on this Forum are my personal opinions only and not those of the World Bowls Laws Committee or the English Bowls Umpires Association

  6. #16
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    OK - practising what I preach, I'm happy to admit that my ultimate conclusion here was wrong, as clearly the UK MNA has permitted transfer of the duties under 40.1.9.

    I was placing too much reliance on the comments in #7: "... you have a Domestic Regulation to allow this. I wish that we had the same DR in England but we do not." Always go back to the source law/rule!

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    ...and you wonder why bowls is dying

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisdb View Post
    ...and you wonder why bowls is dying
    To be honest Chris every sport would be dead if this were defined by players arguing about the laws.

  9. #19
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    This would be very true if it were arguing on the green - in my experience that very rarely happens and people just get on with things. This is a case of someone asking a general question about the laws: it surely has to be good for players to know the actual requirements of the laws upfront, as that should keep on-green disputes to a minimum.

  10. #20
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    Yes corp, but that general question could have been answered simply with two lines and not the diatribe that occured - that is by no means helpful to any player who wants a basic understanding of the law.

    Enough said on this now as the question has been answered
    It's a simple game really!!!
    Commonwealth Games Technical Official - Manchester 2002, Melbourne 2006, Delhi 2010, Glasgow 2014, Gold Coast 2018

    www.allanthornhill.com or Contact me directly @ Ask Umpy

    Any comments made by me on this Forum are my personal opinions only and not those of the World Bowls Laws Committee or the English Bowls Umpires Association

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