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Thread: Marking a toucher

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    Default Marking a toucher


    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    The Law says we mark a toucher as soon as it comes to rest,another says mark before the next bowl comes to rest, We do not allow a marker the second option,so why is it there anyway,we all know the second option can cause problems, any thoughts ?
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    The basic law is clearly 15.1 - requiring a toucher to be ("must" = mandatory) marked "as soon as it comes to rest". Read very strictly, that allows no gap at all between the bowl coming to rest and the act of marking it: hard to be complied with exactly. If 15.1 is not adhered to (either with a very slight gap, or a longer one, say, after another bowl is delivered) there is no immediate penalty under this para. of the law and the bowl would remain a toucher in fact, marked or otherwise.

    Law 15.3 doesn't really seem to change this in itself and 'allow/condone' a delayed marking, but appears to provide the penalty not contained in 15.1 - ie there is a length of time after which a toucher would be deemed not be one for future purposes.

    Law 13.2 is really more about possesion of the rink in circumstancess where 15.1 is adhered to, and not so much about touchers and marking thereof per se.

    I would guess that the period of grace in 15.3 is there in case the next bowler rushes his delivery and does not allow for the marking of a toucher (seemingly no effective penalty to him or his bowl for doing such), either through excess zeal, or perhaps due to the person who is to mark it being a bit slow off the mark for whatever reason (infirmity, distance away, not immediately seeing that it was in fact a toucher etc) - it would seem unreasonable to penalise the toucher in circumstances when it may not have been entirely the fault of its side (or the marker) to immediately act.

    Whether the time delay in 15.2 is 'right' or not is moot, but if you accept, as I would, that a delay (of whatever length) is sensible, it is perhaps the only/earliest discrete point in time that can be identified as a potential end to this period of grace - you wouldn't want it extending any further and couldn't really give an earlier, unambiguous point

    At the end of the day, if a period of grace was not there, and bowls could only be regarded as a toucher if marked 'as soon as' (with no leeway whatsoever permitted) I could envisage arguments over the slightest fraction of a time gap between rest/marking! Equally, if not more so, unattractive. You could also end up with folk trying to mark just a tad too soon, before the bowl has come to a complete rest to avoid such a scenario - again, not to be welcomed or chanced.
    Last edited by corptaxman; 24-09-2019 at 04:29 PM.

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    The basic law is clearly 15.1 - requiring a toucher to be ("must" = mandatory) marked "as soon as it comes to rest". Read very strictly, that allows no gap at all between the bowl coming to rest and the act of marking it: hard to be complied with exactly. If 15.1 is not adhered to (either with a very slight gap, or a longer one, say, after another bowl is delivered) there is no immediate penalty under this para. of the law and the bowl would remain a toucher in fact, marked or otherwise.

    Law 15.3 doesn't really seem to change this in itself and 'allow/condone' a delayed marking, but appears to provide the penalty not contained in 15.1 - ie there is a length of time after which a toucher would be deemed not be one for future purposes.

    Law 13.2 is really more about possesion of the rink in circumstancess where 15.1 is adhered to, and not so much about touchers and marking thereof per se.

    I would guess that the period of grace in 15.3 is there in case the next bowler rushes his delivery and does not allow for the marking of a toucher (seemingly no effective penalty to him or his bowl for doing such), either through excess zeal, or perhaps due to the person who is to mark it being a bit slow off the mark for whatever reason (infirmity, distance away, not immediately seeing that it was in fact a toucher etc) - it would seem unreasonable to penalise the toucher in circumstances when it may not have been entirely the fault of its side (or the marker) to immediately act.

    Whether the time delay in 15.2 is 'right' or not is moot, but if you accept, as I would, that a delay (of whatever length) is sensible, it is perhaps the only/earliest discrete point in time that can be identified as a potential end to this period of grace - you wouldn't want it extending any further and couldn't really give an earlier, unambiguous point

    At the end of the day, if a period of grace was not there, and bowls could only be regarded as a toucher if marked 'as soon as' (with no leeway whatsoever permitted) I could envisage arguments over the slightest fraction of a time gap between rest/marking! Equally, if not more so, unattractive. You could also end up with folk trying to mark just a tad too soon, before the bowl has come to a complete rest to avoid such a scenario - again, not to be welcomed or chanced.
    That is not really what i am asking, and why do you say “or the marker”
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Then what actually was the question? I had believed you were asking why the 'option' (not really such in my view) to mark after the touching bowl had come to rest, and up to the time the next bowl was delivered/come to rest, existed, and sought to answer that.

    As to my inclusion of 'or the marker', this was because it might be the marker who was tardy, or at least, not quick enough, in the first place.
    Last edited by corptaxman; 24-09-2019 at 05:07 PM.

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    Then what actually was the question? I had believed you were asking why the 'option' (not really such in my view) to mark after the touching bowl had come to rest, and up to the time the next bowl was delivered/come to rest, existed, and sought to answer that.

    As to my inclusion of 'or the marker', this was because it might be the marker who was tardy, or at least, not quick enough, in the first place.
    The marker does not get the option and at the start of the game,one of the markers duties would be to inform the players that he will be marking touchers as soon as they occur.as is his duty.Ifyou have choices how can there not be an option,you either mark it when it comes to rest,or you mark it before the next bowl comes to rest, how can that not be an option
    Last edited by john haydock; 24-09-2019 at 09:01 PM.
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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Because, as I read the laws, there is no 'choice/option' as such - the toucher bowl must be marked as soon as it comes to rest. That is all the law says - and gives no choice/option Everything else is what occurs if that does not in fact happen for whatever reason - one the consequences is that if the toucher bowl has not been marked by the time the next bowl comes to rest, it ceases to be a toucher - this is not an 'option' (which connotes a choice at the outset, when there is none under 15.1): it seems to be a practical route as to what happens and when. Whatever we might hope for, people do not always act 100% in accordance with laws, and timeously, and practical measures are needed to allow for/deal with this.

    Where - under the laws - does it say that if a marker has failed to comply with 15.1 and his duties etc as you mention, he is then barred from marking it subsequently so as to bring the situation within 15.3? In a case where he does mark it within the 15.3 grace period - I can see nothing to penalise or withdraw the effect of the marking, and see no reason for having one.
    Last edited by corptaxman; 25-09-2019 at 08:39 AM.

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by corptaxman View Post
    Because, as I read the laws, there is no 'choice/option' as such - the toucher bowl must be marked as soon as it comes to rest. That is all the law says - and gives no choice/option Everything else is what occurs if that does not in fact happen for whatever reason - one the consequences is that if the toucher bowl has not been marked by the time the next bowl comes to rest, it ceases to be a toucher - this is not an 'option' (which connotes a choice at the outset, when there is none under 15.1): it seems to be a practical route as to what happens and when. Whatever we might hope for, people do not always act 100% in accordance with laws, and timeously, and practical measures are needed to allow for/deal with this.

    Where - under the laws - does it say that if a marker has failed to comply with 15.1 and his duties etc as you mention, he is then barred from marking it subsequently so as to bring the situation within 15.3? In a case where he does mark it within the 15.3 grace period - I can see nothing to penalise or withdraw the effect of the marking, and see no reason for having one.
    This really is pointless you keep saying the same thing over and over again,read Law 42.2.9 it is obviously one which you are not aware of,that is my last word on what i hoped would be a good topic
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    I am aware of 42.2.9, but it doesn't change what I have thought and written.

    We know what should be done and when - that is clear. But, the point is what happens if that does not occur? Those are consequences, and not options/choices : no-one is entitled as the potential toucher comes down to think : "I can either mark the bowl immediately or wait" - but something has to cope when they cannot/do not comply with 15.1 or the markers duties as laid out. 15.3 does this in two situations:

    - if the toucher is marked before the next bowl comes to rest: the toucher remains a toucher
    - if it is not so marked: the toucher (as it is to the point of the next bowl coming rest) then ceases to be treated as a toucher

    It is repeating the point, but you are not seeing that there is no initial choice - it is mandated - as to when the toucher should be marked, but there are two possible sets of consequence if that just doesn't happen. This is the only explanation that makes any sense (to me at least) of the various laws that mention the situation. What do others think?
    Last edited by corptaxman; 25-09-2019 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Typo correction

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    The answer is very simple, as in EBF do away with "touchers", no more arguments just play bowls.

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    It would, but John's inital question was about the laws as they stand.

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